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Sunny
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Posts: 1467
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 Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:22 pm Post subject:
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Legal abortion was based on LIES.
For instance....
The Pro-abortion advocates knew that the 5,000 to 10,000 deaths were a myth. Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of the National Abortion Rights Action League, admits his group lied about the number of women who died from illegal abortions.
When testifying before the Supreme Court in 1972, he said, “We spoke of 5,000-10,000 deaths a year. . . . I confess that I knew the figures were totally false. . . it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics?”
http://www.thesil.ca/print.pl?sid=06/03/22/1834245
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zarqua
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 936
Location: new york
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Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject:
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I'm glad you brought up Nathanson, he is one person the other side actually fears and that's why you never ever see him on TV shows like Charlie Rose. You don't always see his books on library shelves either (pro-choice librarians?). I think he was too hard on himself though in his last book, The Hand of God. He shows a self-flagellating remorse over his past that seems brooding and existential and as a newly-minted Catholic he should keep in mind when the Devil reminds you of your past remind him of his future. Yeah Bernie, we know you're sorry, enough already! I'm sure we'll be seeing you in Heaven someday.
If I may tie in prostitution once again, it is a moral scourge in society but I can't get over how hard we come down on it when the unborn up to 24 weeks are routinely aborted in some cases. Logically it's a pretzel.
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If pro-choice is not anti-abortion but not pro-abortion either, then what is it?
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zarqua
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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Location: new york
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:13 am Post subject:
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Yes, Bernie has set up his own razor wire shrine. He says in his book that he is terrified over the 70,000+ abortions he was responsible for, when he goes before the throne of God. This mars his otherwise superb book although he has the very George Will habit of using big words that you've never heard of before. It's like he's a doctor writing for other doctors and not the layman.
I personally do believe the devil exists and that he is responsible for our current culture of death but that's a religious view. You have your lifers who say to appeal to the widest possible audience don't bring God into it. I kinda take the middle ground on this one but don't know how you can leave God and the devil out of it entirely either. I've a habit of posting things on some Catholic discussion boards, particularly how important it is to have a devotion to the Virgin Mary. Recently I'm in the library and a woman sits down next to me and asks me point blank what am I typing. I lie and say it's an e-mail and she says it's an awfully long e-mail and then she asks me is it Yahoo (why would the average library patron even care?) It was very unusual and disconcerting to say the least but I do believe it was the devil sans the split pea soup (of course you have your agnostics who'd joke that Walgreen's just called with your prescription). I don't believe he possesses people, too childish and not his style, and I can't recommend movies like "The Exorcist" or even Malachi Martin's book on the subject which he wrote with a flair to sell his book (seemed to get off on the subject is my view). If anything he terrorizes you on an intellectual level, he messes with your mind and Bernie should know his excessive moral introspection is not what true Christianity is all about.
If Bernie wants to brood about this then he should blog and leave it out of any future books...and leave the medical thesaurus at home please!
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If pro-choice is not anti-abortion but not pro-abortion either, then what is it?
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Beth
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 442
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:30 am Post subject:
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| zarqua wrote: |
Yes, Bernie has set up his own razor wire shrine. He says in his book that he is terrified over the 70,000+ abortions he was responsible for, when he goes before the throne of God. This mars his otherwise superb book although he has the very George Will habit of using big words that you've never heard of before. It's like he's a doctor writing for other doctors and not the layman.
I personally do believe the devil exists and that he is responsible for our current culture of death but that's a religious view. You have your lifers who say to appeal to the widest possible audience don't bring God into it. I kinda take the middle ground on this one but don't know how you can leave God and the devil out of it entirely either. I've a habit of posting things on some Catholic discussion boards, particularly how important it is to have a devotion to the Virgin Mary. Recently I'm in the library and a woman sits down next to me and asks me point blank what am I typing. I lie and say it's an e-mail and she says it's an awfully long e-mail and then she asks me is it Yahoo (why would the average library patron even care?) It was very unusual and disconcerting to say the least but I do believe it was the devil sans the split pea soup (of course you have your agnostics who'd joke that Walgreen's just called with your prescription). I don't believe he possesses people, too childish and not his style, and I can't recommend movies like "The Exorcist" or even Malachi Martin's book on the subject which he wrote with a flair to sell his book (seemed to get off on the subject is my view). If anything he terrorizes you on an intellectual level, he messes with your mind and Bernie should know his excessive moral introspection is not what true Christianity is all about.
If Bernie wants to brood about this then he should blog and leave it out of any future books...and leave the medical thesaurus at home please! |
You don't have to be religious to be pro-life. I knew an atheist who thought abortion was wrong.
I do agree with you that the devil doesn't possess people but does influence us and loves the culture of disrespect for life as I call it (instead of the culture of death). Apathy is a form of disrespect I believe, too.
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zarqua
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 936
Location: new york
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject:
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| Beth wrote: |
You don't have to be religious to be pro-life. I knew an atheist who thought abortion was wrong.
I do agree with you that the devil doesn't possess people but does influence us and loves the culture of disrespect for life as I call it (instead of the culture of death). Apathy is a form of disrespect I believe, too. |
(as you can tell I meander in my subject matter)
I've gone both ways on this. Writer Nat Hentoff is an atheist and is as pro-life as they come. I've always had a problem with abortion in my gut and feel even if I wasn't raised Catholic I would still be against it but most people who oppose it do tend to be religious.
Re the devil, I know of a story where a man was buying something in a store and was ready to pay for it when a man and a woman dressed totally in black approached him and said that's supposed to come with a light bulb. Long story short there was a problem with security but no long-range repercussions but the point is the man thought they were devils and totally turned his life around from such vices. Can the devil sometimes tempt us to do something knowing full well that when we pay the consequences for our actions we'll learn something too? What is his endgame here? Is it possible that he seduces us to sin but also hates human sin and so avenges it later on in his own way? (so you like to steal, we'll fix that).
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If pro-choice is not anti-abortion but not pro-abortion either, then what is it?
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Sunny
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject:
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I believe the devil influences people and tempts them, and the devil also possesses some people, but that is very rare.
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zarqua
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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Location: new york
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject:
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| Sunny wrote: |
| I believe the devil influences people and tempts them, and the devil also possesses some people, but that is very rare. |
I was always taught in my Catholic training that the Devil much prefers anonymity, that his greatest weapon is the prevalent belief that he doesn't exist so why would he and his angels manifest themselves so obviously in cases of possession? People who were "possessed" and have been successfully "exorcised" have gone on to lead very virtuous lives afterwards and the experience leaves them with a soul-shattering nervousness. So unless the Devil wants to scare people into being better why would he even do this?
Terri Schiavo was starved to death during Holy Week and so her soul went to heaven. If he really wanted her soul he would have kept her alive and tempted her to lead a sinful life. Maybe we ourselves are to blame for our culture of death, maybe in some ways we are worse than the Devil. Maybe his true role is to punish the truly unrepentant among us in the afterlife and not so much to tempt. Are we that weak?
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If pro-choice is not anti-abortion but not pro-abortion either, then what is it?
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Sunny
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject:
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| zarqua wrote: |
| Sunny wrote: |
| I believe the devil influences people and tempts them, and the devil also possesses some people, but that is very rare. |
I was always taught in my Catholic training that the Devil much prefers anonymity, that his greatest weapon is the prevalent belief that he doesn't exist so why would he and his angels manifest themselves so obviously in cases of possession? People who were "possessed" and have been successfully "exorcised" have gone on to lead very virtuous lives afterwards and the experience leaves them with a soul-shattering nervousness. So unless the Devil wants to scare people into being better why would he even do this?
Terri Schiavo was starved to death during Holy Week and so her soul went to heaven. If he really wanted her soul he would have kept her alive and tempted her to lead a sinful life. Maybe we ourselves are to blame for our culture of death, maybe in some ways we are worse than the Devil. Maybe his true role is to punish the truly unrepentant among us in the afterlife and not so much to tempt. Are we that weak?
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To me it seemed odd that Elion was sent back to COMMUNIST Cuba, and Terri was murdered, both during the Holy week.
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Beth
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 442
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:04 am Post subject:
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| zarqua wrote: |
| Sunny wrote: |
| I believe the devil influences people and tempts them, and the devil also possesses some people, but that is very rare. |
I was always taught in my Catholic training that the Devil much prefers anonymity, that his greatest weapon is the prevalent belief that he doesn't exist so why would he and his angels manifest themselves so obviously in cases of possession? People who were "possessed" and have been successfully "exorcised" have gone on to lead very virtuous lives afterwards and the experience leaves them with a soul-shattering nervousness. So unless the Devil wants to scare people into being better why would he even do this?
Terri Schiavo was starved to death during Holy Week and so her soul went to heaven. If he really wanted her soul he would have kept her alive and tempted her to lead a sinful life. Maybe we ourselves are to blame for our culture of death, maybe in some ways we are worse than the Devil. Maybe his true role is to punish the truly unrepentant among us in the afterlife and not so much to tempt. Are we that weak?
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You've got the devil's role all wrong, zarqua. He influenced people like Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer to behave in such a cruel way towards an innocent human being. Its all part of the culture of disrespect for life. When we don't take care of ourselves and we don't take care of each other, we are not being Christ-like and are more open to the devil's empty promises.
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zarqua
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 936
Location: new york
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject:
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| Sunny wrote: |
To me it seemed odd that Elion was sent back to COMMUNIST Cuba, and Terri was murdered, both during the Holy week. |
I'm starting to think that even if the devil ceased tempting man to sin or even made an announcement don't follow me we'd still sin like this, that maybe we are just an incredibly stupid race and the devil has nothing to do with it. There is a theological school of thought (maybe still in the minority but it's well-respected) that the devil knows he's going to lose, it's in Scripture, and still being a rational though self-interested creature he wants to avoid an eternity in hell. I don't think he's this stupid but even if he did cease his persecutions tomorrow the whole evil ball of yarn would take some time to unravel.
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zarqua
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 936
Location: new york
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject:
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| Beth wrote: |
You've got the devil's role all wrong, zarqua. He influenced people like Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer to behave in such a cruel way towards an innocent human being. Its all part of the culture of disrespect for life. When we don't take care of ourselves and we don't take care of each other, we are not being Christ-like and are more open to the devil's empty promises. |
Did you know Beth that in The Mystical City of God by the Ven. Mary of Agreda that Lucifer, once he strongly suspected that Jesus was the Son of God and would redeem the human race by dying on the cross, that he reversed course and attempted to save Christ's life by swaying the elders to spare his life but they were so riven by hatred for Christ that even the devil couldn't stop what happened. One thing is for certain though, even if the devil did influence Michael Schiavo and Judge Greer he will hardly reward them.
I think the thing with "Possession" is that both sides have it wrong. The mental health professionals don't want to admit anything may be going on and the exorcism industry and its authors highlight the theater of it all but they never draw any overall conclusions from it (if the devil wants to remain hidden why is he manifesting himself in this way?) It is a mystery.
We recently had "Entertainment Tonight" get Mary Jo, Joey Buffafuoco and Amy Fisher all in the same room to talk about things and don't kid yourself, the media would just love to do the same thing with Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers. Won't that be something!
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zarqua
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 936
Location: new york
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Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:
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Here is a thought though. The case could be made that the death of Terri Schiavo, the inhumane way in which she died, could be bad for the pro-abortion/pro-euthanasia movement. As Michael Weiner said at the time what the choicers really fear is that if people start having respect for the Terri Schiavos of the world then the unborn can't be far behind. Her plight may have pushed more people into the pro-life camp and it is for this reason that I hesitate to say it's all diabolical as was my previous position.
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task
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Posts: 5
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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: Pro-Life
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The fact that a fetus eventually becomes a self-supporting entity that deserves the final episode of parturition is not a dispute. What is a dispute is at what point rights are conferred. Presently it depends upon what side of the womb he/she is on. At the very least… legally establishing pre-parturient rights at a designated gestational age (say 180 days) might be the best way to protect these human beings. Clearly define it as a human being thereby automatically providing civil rights, protected and guaranteed by the courts. The pro-death/pro-life argument for or against very late term abortion suddenly ceases.
Should the current appeal before the Supreme Court, prohibiting the late term abortion restrictions succeed it could be successfully countered with new legislation at a Federal or State level embodying this alternative.
No court can deny a human being his or her rights. What’s more is that the legislation itself can only be undone, not by attorneys, but by licensed medical professionals who dispute and testify that a human being capable of living in a hospital incubator is not a human being. Hard to do.
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Randy Carnell
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 9
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:55 am Post subject:
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The drvil does not tempt us to do wrong its god who gives us a choise
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mlf
Site Admin
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 2661
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Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject:
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| Randy Carnell wrote: |
| The drvil does not tempt us to do wrong its god who gives us a choise |
Randy, are you a liberal?
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