Ameritopia 101

[MBethany]

Barb 1211 wrote:

Our Nation has outlasted every other great Nation of the world because our founding Fathers set our Constitution to preserve and protect our individual liberty and our God given rights, but the very Abundance created has opened the door to Selfishness, Apathy and Dependency…

I have scanned Ameritopia over and over, and I cannot find that “abundance” is the root cause of our “decay.” In fact, if Mark ever said such a thing, I would instantly disown him!

What have we here? Christian socialistic guilt associated with Ameritopia?! I sincerely hope that this is not intentional, but plain naivety.

The idea that abundance leads to selfishness is adopted from Plato’s works, especially from The Republic and The Laws. Plato banned the private use of money from his ideal society, because, according to him, trade and commerce lead to “an utterly shameless and small-minded way of life.” (Plato, The Laws, Book Eleven, Retail Trade.) This is NOT the teaching of the Bible! Even so, almost from the beginning, learned Christian theologians were heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy.

Abundance is not causing selfishness, but on the contrary, it allows generosity. In order to give, you must have more than you need. The American people are exceedingly generous, because they are wealthy. But why are they wealthy? Because the rich continuously reinvest their wealth to produce more wealth. Once the investment stops, production is haltered, and the nation sinks into hopeless poverty. This is happening in all socialist countries.

Barb 1211, please read again Ameritopia, especially Chapter Three, THOMAS MORE’S UTOPIA AND RADICAL EGALITARIANISM. Thomas More (a strong Platonist) believed that money is the root of all evil:

“[ A] ll the desire of money with the use thereof is utterly secluded and banished, how great a heap of cares is cut away! How great an occasion of wickedness and mischief is plucked up by the roots! For who knoweth not that fraud, theft, ravin, brawling, quarreling, babbling, strife, chiding, contention, murder, treason, poisoning, which by daily punishments are rather revenged than refrained, do die when money dieth? And also that fear, grief, care, labors, and watchings do perish even the very same moment that money perisheth? Yea, poverty itself, which only seemed to lack money, if money were gone, it also would decrease and vanish away” (Quoted by Mark Levin, Ameritopia, pp. 42-43)

Mark Levin doesn’t believe this. No common sense person believes that the cure of poverty is having no money at all. Common sense thinkers know that people cannot just walk into the storehouses and get what they want, but goods must be produced, transported, and traded. This requires money. Money is necessary, because it is the tool of production and exchange.

The breakdown of this country is not caused by “abundance,” but by the decaying influence of Utopian Marxist Socialists. And sadly, some Christians lending them a helping hand by making us feel guilty about our wealth and progress.

[task]

Christianity may in fact have some basis to allow mischief by governments that authors forced coercion in the name of compassion. But the root cause of utopianism is based upon central control where societies, right down to the individual, are coerced and molded to fit the model. Our Republic is based upon freedom and property rights and, as such, government was once designed around the smallest element of a group which is the individual. Obviously it has drifted far from original intent.

Our nation was founded by Christians and is the bastion of capitalism. John Locke was a Christian. I suggest that most of us get familiar with the book, "Protestantism and The Spirit Of Capitalism". Christianity as practiced by Catholics in Southern Ireland is quite different from the Christianity practiced by Protestants in Northern Ireland. Even in Catholic Italy there is a huge difference in prosperity between the North and the South and much of it is based, in my belief, upon culture.

To add a little levity to the discussion an argument can be made that prosperity has a lot more in common with a beer drinking society and poverty with a wine drinking society. As an example I switched from wine to beer and my overall income took a dramatic upward shift. And I feel better as well.

[mlf]

To add a little levity to the discussion an argument can be made that prosperity has a lot more in common with a beer drinking society and poverty with a wine drinking society. As an example I switched from wine to beer and my overall income took a dramatic upward shift. And I feel better as well.

[MBethany]

We have two classes, beer drinkers and vine drinkers.
You rednecks! You are clinging to your Bibles, Guns, and Beer-mugs! Phew!

Seriously, not too long ago, Americans were proud in their classless society. Who would name public servants and politicians the “ruling class,” except humorists? But now, it is not uncommon to call them the “ruling elite.” Lincoln was proud to be a farm boy; BiteMe is proud, because there was no working man in his family. Indeed, we created a class to rule over us.

task wrote:
Our nation was founded by Christians and is the bastion of capitalism. John Locke was a Christian.

This is absolutely true. However, considering religious social-philosophy, there are two kinds of Christians. For short, we may call them Hebraists and Hellenists. The first group recognizes that the religion of Christ is deeply rooted in the Hebrew culture, while Hellenist Christians interpret the Gospels with the aid of Plato’s vision of the Ideal Society. The big difference is that the Hebrews respected work and the production of wealth through trade and commerce, while Plato despised it, and he described those who were engaged in this kind of activity as the citizens of the lowest class. The reason for this was that Athens became a trading city, and the “new rich” demanded a share in political power with the noble class. To avoid their “meddling,” Plato denounced money as the root of all evil. Afterwards, Greek and Roman philosophers trained in the Academy treated money as the object of scorn. (These hypocrites did not disdain wealth if it was acquired by wars or produced by slaves on their big estates and mines.)

task wrote:
Christianity may in fact have some basis to allow mischief by governments that authors forced coercion in the name of compassion.

Christianity has no allowance for “forced coercion in the name of compassion”! None, none at all, zero! This idea is not supported by the Bible. The mischief is in Platonism. From the very beginning, Platonism has attached itself to Christianity via philosophers, and never let it go, until the Reformation. After the Reformation, the “beautiful platonic dream” of government-controlled charity was transplanted into socialistic utopias. The reason socialism has any credibility, because in the eyes of some naïve people “spreading the wealth” represents the Christian effort to “feed the hungry and clothe naked”—by the government.

Christian socialist leaders are the reason the liberals get so many votes in this country. They provide for the extra margin that tips the scale to the Democrats. They are like worms in the apple. Since they are not a political party, they have no official “representatives” in Congress. Ostensibly, they are “independents” and “moderates.” However, they are “advisers” to leftist presidents and powerful politicians—in their case the intermingling of Church and State is permitted. And they have the pulpits. Christian socialist preachers are relentlessly playing on the heartstrings of compassionate churchgoers. They make their “flock” guilty about the American past, and make them ashamed of their prosperity. They falsely name capitalism “social Darwinism"; and they blame “ruthless competition” for unjust economic inequality and for the corruption of the affluent society.

For decades now, we have been enmeshed in endless arguments between the two options of the ‘command economy’ of state-directed socialist systems, and the 'market economy’ of world capitalism. The failures of both systems, which we have discussed earlier, cry out for something new. What could it be? Perhaps the new concept we are searching for is best described as a ‘community economy.’
Jim Wallis, The Soul of Politics (1994)

Jim Wallis calls himself a “Christian leader for social change.” It is no surprise that he is a trusted adviser to the Community Organizer. He probably wrote him a private manual, How to Fool Christians.

Christian socialists are dangerous enemies of individual freedom and prosperity. They are important props for international socialism, because they are impediments of economic growth, worldwide. Their activities are especially insidious in the Third World, where they prevent the development of capitalism. In those countries, the population is kept in permanent and desperate poverty.

These false preachers are not ignorant. In my eyes, they are criminals, since they know that only in a healthy, well developed capitalist economy can we “feed the hungry and clothe the naked.” This is a proven lesson of history.

[task]

Christianity has no allowance for “forced coercion in the name of compassion”!

This is certainly true but liberals love to use biblical phrases and the words of Christ to justify government programs. Actually the Catholic Church, until this recent episode of coercion regarding medical insurance funding for abortion, represented an example of just what some Christian religions attempt to accomplish using government to advance social programs. Catholicism has nakedly supported socialist governments.

[MaddMac]

no and yes. heres another quip for ya: "the marines, the few,the proud,the....um...suicidal." ha.

...

Not suicidal... however they do call them jar heads. Not sure who started that... but I don't think it was meant in a positive manner. LoL

[midlander]

Thanks for being there. That's true for all you guys.

It took me two months to finish "Ameritopia." I had to train myself to stop saying "YES!" following every sentence.

I wish we (meaning you and me) had a border, I wish we had a federal gov't that respected borders.

We'd call it Mark Levin Land. And we would be really pissed, but really happy.

Guess we must keep chugging along. Hey God, loves you, but Mother Nature is a bitch.

And just in case someone ever asks you "What's the male alternative to 'bitch'", it's "dog".

A Dog

[MaddMac]

Christianity may in fact have some basis to allow mischief by governments that authors forced coercion in the name of compassion. But the root cause of utopianism is based upon central control where societies, right down to the individual, are coerced and molded to fit the model. Our Republic is based upon freedom and property rights and, as such, government was once designed around the smallest element of a group which is the individual. Obviously it has drifted far from original intent.

Our nation was founded by Christians and is the bastion of capitalism. John Locke was a Christian. I suggest that most of us get familiar with the book, "Protestantism and The Spirit Of Capitalism". Christianity as practiced by Catholics in Southern Ireland is quite different from the Christianity practiced by Protestants in Northern Ireland. Even in Catholic Italy there is a huge difference in prosperity between the North and the South and much of it is based, in my belief, upon culture.

To add a little levity to the discussion an argument can be made that prosperity has a lot more in common with a beer drinking society and poverty with a wine drinking society. As an example I switched from wine to beer and my overall income took a dramatic upward shift. And I feel better as well.

Amen, brother! Tho Jesus did turn water into wine... not beer.

[MaddMac]

Barb 1211 wrote:

Our Nation has outlasted every other great Nation of the world because our founding Fathers set our Constitution to preserve and protect our individual liberty and our God given rights, but the very Abundance created has opened the door to Selfishness, Apathy and Dependency…

I have scanned Ameritopia over and over, and I cannot find that “abundance” is the root cause of our “decay.” In fact, if Mark ever said such a thing, I would instantly disown him!

What have we here? Christian socialistic guilt associated with Ameritopia?! I sincerely hope that this is not intentional, but plain naivety.

The idea that abundance leads to selfishness is adopted from Plato’s works, especially from The Republic and The Laws. Plato banned the private use of money from his ideal society, because, according to him, trade and commerce lead to “an utterly shameless and small-minded way of life.” (Plato, The Laws, Book Eleven, Retail Trade.) This is NOT the teaching of the Bible! Even so, almost from the beginning, learned Christian theologians were heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy.

Abundance is not causing selfishness, but on the contrary, it allows generosity. In order to give, you must have more than you need. The American people are exceedingly generous, because they are wealthy. But why are they wealthy? Because the rich continuously reinvest their wealth to produce more wealth. Once the investment stops, production is haltered, and the nation sinks into hopeless poverty. This is happening in all socialist countries.

Barb 1211, please read again Ameritopia, especially Chapter Three, THOMAS MORE’S UTOPIA AND RADICAL EGALITARIANISM. Thomas More (a strong Platonist) believed that money is the root of all evil:

“[ A] ll the desire of money with the use thereof is utterly secluded and banished, how great a heap of cares is cut away! How great an occasion of wickedness and mischief is plucked up by the roots! For who knoweth not that fraud, theft, ravin, brawling, quarreling, babbling, strife, chiding, contention, murder, treason, poisoning, which by daily punishments are rather revenged than refrained, do die when money dieth? And also that fear, grief, care, labors, and watchings do perish even the very same moment that money perisheth? Yea, poverty itself, which only seemed to lack money, if money were gone, it also would decrease and vanish away” (Quoted by Mark Levin, Ameritopia, pp. 42-43)

Mark Levin doesn’t believe this. No common sense person believes that the cure of poverty is having no money at all. Common sense thinkers know that people cannot just walk into the storehouses and get what they want, but goods must be produced, transported, and traded. This requires money. Money is necessary, because it is the tool of production and exchange.

The breakdown of this country is not caused by “abundance,” but by the decaying influence of Utopian Marxist Socialists. And sadly, some Christians lending them a helping hand by making us feel guilty about our wealth and progress.

Marxist Socialists twist this scripture to say it is our obligation as a society to do what was said. That's not the context nor was it what Jesus taught.

The first rule of interpretation is, do NOT take text out of context. One can make the Bible say all sorts of foolish things in doing so.

1 John 3:16-18 NIV

This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters. If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Johns point was, if YOU claim to be a Christian and do not help those in need... what good is your faith. Personal response, NOT force others to do what YOU should do.

[task]

I never claim to be a Christian even though I am a baptized catholic and went to catholic schools. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars (more like hundreds of thousands), and given what would be years of free time to help both people and animals yet never once thought about God or Jesus. I do it because I can't turn off the worry and control switch within me that keeps me troubled until I see a better outcome or result than would otherwise be the case if I remained uninvolved. And I don't plan on going to a better place after I am dead and buried. And I plan to be dead for a very long time.